-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: :| Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 01:05:40 -0300 From: fauno To: Luke , André Silva , Isaac David , coadde , ovruni@gnu.org.pe like i said in the channel you invited me to, something didn't feel right and its the lack of transparency of this discussion. if you're not comfortable with the agreement we have with ceata we should be discussing this openly on our mailing list like we always did. i don't share your views. moving money, legally or ilegally, across borders, is always a pain in the ass. i think we should be really thankful of what tiberiu and ceata are doing for us, even when we may feel it's bureaucratic and slow. it's going to be so with any other fiscal sponsor we may find, though i doubt we find one after splitting from ceata over this kind of flaky reasons. it's really worrying this mix of stuff i read on the pad and tox, specially some mentions of breaking the deal with ceata and split the money between people. i understand you feel entitled to it because you put a lot of work, but so far we haven't agreed on paying wages, and this isn't a hoard to be split. i also read you're wasting money from your pockets. you do this because you want. if you were a little more patient we could solve this, specially when the requisites are ridiculous from every corner. i also don't understand your current urge to break the fiscal sponsorship agreement. we were just discussing on how to pay the delivery of a machine from US to Uruguay as you wanted. i was opposed to some ideas that were bounced, because the costs tripled the cost of the actual hardware. tiberiu literally said "let me know when you agree on something and i'll pay whatever you tell me to". he even offered a machine and datacenter colocation that was going to be much more cheaper than we were actually discussing, IMO moving a bunch of aluminum across the planet. this is why i think this current discussion is unfair and severely misguided. if we want to have a serious discussion about this, please stop spreading fud. this is a dump of the thread about the build server: https://share.riseup.net/#bZqxbeJ5xair5HlVOk-Afw let me know if you see something that backs the claims i've been reading. i agree we need to find ways to be more diligent on doing stuff with donations, being able to pay wages even, but this is not the way to start it. please step on the brakes. i'm really angry at this. please don't approach me privately. i won't reply to emails tomorrow either. i urge to discuss your concerns openly. -- D -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: :| Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 15:23:04 +0000 From: André Silva To: fauno , Luke , Isaac David , coadde , ovruni@gnu.org.pe, Megver83 , Jorge López On 04/02/2017 04:05 AM, fauno wrote: > > like i said in the channel you invited me to, something didn't feel > right and its the lack of transparency of this discussion. if you're > not comfortable with the agreement we have with ceata we should be > discussing this openly on our mailing list like we always did. There is a misunderstanding here, it wasn't like you said "a coup", it was a meeting proposed by Megver83 to prepare a consensus in devs lists soon to open a webstore and services by devs in Parabola to receive their money under a legal and KISS way. > i don't share your views. moving money, legally or ilegally, across > borders, is always a pain in the ass. i think we should be really > thankful of what tiberiu and ceata are doing for us, even when we may > feel it's bureaucratic and slow. it's going to be so with any other > fiscal sponsor we may find, though i doubt we find one after splitting > from ceata over this kind of flaky reasons. Sorry, i don't share your point of view about that moving money across borders "is always a pain in the ass", i have an bank account in Switzerland considered as a "tax haven" country and i can say you since my personal experience, it's very easy to receive/send money around the world (i do it with Jorginho everytime) living from abroad under this legal way. You can say me "hey, but is not the same for entities", i can say you there are ways to solve it. In one hand, we have Gaming4JC's idea to sharing money inside Liberapay+Bitcoin wallets and declaring it when the money is arrived in "our hands" in our residential countries. In another hand, there is another option such as open a offshore that is a legal entity which is incorporated or registered in a "tax haven" country. Offshores are used for a variety of commercial and private purposes, some legitimate and economically beneficial. Offshore structures are formed for a variety of reasons. In our case it could be: * Asset protection: wealthy individuals who live in politically unstable countries utilise offshore companies to hold family wealth to avoid potential expropriation or exchange control restrictions in the country in which they live. These structures work best when the wealth is foreign-earned, or has been expatriated over a significant period of time (aggregating annual exchange control allowances) (eg. Cuba, Brazil, North Korea, etc). * Collective Investment Vehicles: mutual funds, hedge funds, unit trusts and SICAVs are formed offshore to facilitate international distribution. By being domiciled in a low tax jurisdiction investors only have to consider the tax implications of their own domicile or residency. Obviously, if we use only offshore without a way to declare and pay fees and taxes in our residence countries when the money is arrived “in our hands”, it is considered “Tax evasion”. Although numbers are difficult to ascertain, it is widely believed that individuals in wealthy nations unlawfully evade tax through not declaring gains made by offshore vehicles that they own. Otherwise, countries such as Brazil (my native country) and Argentina are considered since my point of view as "hell tax" countries where make any simple paperwork, bill, invoice is a headache, do you remember FISL17? Maybe Rumania is another typical case of "hell tax" country and it could be one of reasons of this paranoic bureaucracy. I really must say that Ceata and tct helped you and me too, however we should get a way to remove/solve this bureaucracy under a legal way, since it is going against Parabola principles. You could say "hey André, but you put shit against Ceata on that pad", yes maybe you are right on that point of view, but i'm an human like you, no a machine. Yesterday, i had a bad day and i'm tired about this bureaucracy from them (Ceata) or their country (Rumania) to use our donations, then i'm sorry ok. Even if you say "yes, it is confirmed to use all our donations", it is not a solution either, we should looking for a way to solve this bureaucracy under consensus to devs lists, however we are preparing and organizing a proposal for our community first, to avoid spread fud and misunderstanding. > it's really worrying this mix of stuff i read on the pad and tox, > specially some mentions of breaking the deal with ceata and split the > money between people. i understand you feel entitled to it because you > put a lot of work, but so far we haven't agreed on paying wages, and > this isn't a hoard to be split. > > i also read you're wasting money from your pockets. you do this because > you want. if you were a little more patient we could solve this, > specially when the requisites are ridiculous from every corner. > > i also don't understand your current urge to break the fiscal > sponsorship agreement. we were just discussing on how to pay the > delivery of a machine from US to Uruguay as you wanted. i was opposed > to some ideas that were bounced, because the costs tripled the cost of > the actual hardware. tiberiu literally said "let me know when you agree > on something and i'll pay whatever you tell me to". he even offered a > machine and datacenter colocation that was going to be much more cheaper > than we were actually discussing, IMO moving a bunch of aluminum across > the planet. this is why i think this current discussion is unfair and > severely misguided. There is another misunderstanding here, if currently i've decided pay from my pocket that **heavy** chassis and shipping and i'm using Stig's donation because was his decision to do it, then it's personal problem between him and me, not from Parabola. Otherwise, if i wasted my money to pay public bus tickets to go from Hotel to FISL while it was accepted by consensus to use money to pay those tickets from our donations, then it is a problem to be solved inside Parabola, not from my pocket, even if it costed only 1 €. Even, you could say "but you didn't declare them under Ceata's name, or show tickets, etc, etc", ok i understand you, but sometimes it's impossible to get them every-time, then we should looking for a way to solve it. (eg. refund it as a "personal donation" with a symbolic value like € 20 or a similar value related to those expenses), however seems it is impossible for Ceata or their countries laws too. > if we want to have a serious discussion about this, please stop > spreading fud. this is a dump of the thread about the build server: > https://share.riseup.net/#bZqxbeJ5xair5HlVOk-Afw > > let me know if you see something that backs the claims i've been > reading. I suggest you put all our private emails (tct, you and me) related to FISL17 too, to show to the guys about the bureaucracy and headaches to prepare it. I deleted those emails from my machine, if you have them yet and have time to do it, i suggest you push them to this link to better clarification. > i agree we need to find ways to be more diligent on doing stuff with > donations, being able to pay wages even, but this is not the way to > start it. please step on the brakes. > > i'm really angry at this. please don't approach me privately. i won't > reply to emails tomorrow either. i urge to discuss your concerns > openly. Don't worry fauno, you aren't the unique here that is angry, i'm angry about this bureaucracy, and at least since my side, i think it is needed to prepare and organize first in private (to avoid spreading fud and misunderstanding), and then put a detailed proposal to devs lists to discuss it openly with all community. P.S: btw, Tiberiu said us that you have a GNUcash file about our expenses and donations. Could you push it to Donation page or any part of our site for a better transparency? I would only know what are our current funds and expenses. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: :| Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 17:34:02 +0000 From: Luke To: fauno , André Silva , Isaac David , coadde , ovruni@gnu.org.pe On 04/02/2017 04:05 AM, fauno wrote: > like i said in the channel you invited me to, something didn't feel > right and its the lack of transparency of this discussion. if you're > not comfortable with the agreement we have with ceata we should be > discussing this openly on our mailing list like we always did. Since you (fauno) are the Ceata delegate, I was the one who mentioned it was important to include you in the discussion and got you invited to the initial brainstorming channel and pad. The meeting was initially about services, which brought us back to how to accept money, and therefore difficulties with Ceata. > i don't share your views. moving money, legally or ilegally, across > borders, is always a pain in the ass. i think we should be really > thankful of what tiberiu and ceata are doing for us, even when we may > feel it's bureaucratic and slow. it's going to be so with any other > fiscal sponsor we may find, though i doubt we find one after splitting > from ceata over this kind of flaky reasons. If moving money is such a "PITA", we are doing something wrong. I know of various non-profits that do this regularly without so many problems. The only coup here is (by current exchange rate) over $3,000USD of BTC which were taken from the "general" wallet and converted to, by most of the world's standards, useless Romanian money (RON). Several developers have expressed interest in helping provide products and services for Parabola which were to be brainstormed on the pad and then brought to public mailing list for greater consensus. We also now have donors who feel angry about lack of transparency and the fact the money is not being spent to help with infrastructure or development. _This should be a much more transparent and easier process for developers and users._ > it's really worrying this mix of stuff i read on the pad and tox, > specially some mentions of breaking the deal with ceata and split the > money between people. i understand you feel entitled to it because you > put a lot of work, but so far we haven't agreed on paying wages, and > this isn't a hoard to be split. If it isn't meant to be used, we should not be accepting donations. So far Ceata has not provided any(?) help for our infrastructure bills or payment to developers. Whenever a consensus is reached publicly, we go back and forth with Ceata about how everything has to be declared and how nothing can be bought through normal methods. Any non-third-world country would allow pre-paid Visa for travelling expenses, and could even pay a check to the developer directly for services or work done. - I would also add that because of the these trips (FISL for example) Parabola has begun receiving more donations and users. That donation money goes right into their pockets, so you'd think it would be something they would enjoy. If donations are not meant to be used what is the point? Just to have thousands(?) of dollars sit around and collect interest in a foreign bank? This whole thing sounds shady. I would rather money not be involved at all if it only leads to corruption and betrayal of our users/developers/donors. > i also read you're wasting money from your pockets. you do this because > you want. if you were a little more patient we could solve this, > specially when the requisites are ridiculous from every corner. Patient = Buying everything from Romanian certified webstores and sending 80 declarations. It's clear to me that Ceata will not even be able help us pay for the postage. (Since UPS cannot declare anything under a Romanian business name) The only thing ridiculous is the bureaucracy here. Outside of Parabola, I've never seen such difficulty paying bills. > i also don't understand your current urge to break the fiscal > sponsorship agreement. we were just discussing on how to pay the > delivery of a machine from US to Uruguay as you wanted. i was opposed > to some ideas that were bounced, because the costs tripled the cost of > the actual hardware. tiberiu literally said "let me know when you agree > on something and i'll pay whatever you tell me to". he even offered a > machine and datacenter colocation that was going to be much more cheaper > than we were actually discussing, IMO moving a bunch of aluminum across > the planet. this is why i think this current discussion is unfair and > severely misguided. Sending the hardware directly was too expensive, I agree. However, we found out Miami Box can do it for less than half the cost. (approx $200USD for entire shipment w/ chasis). Emulatorman was paying for shipping from Miami to his address without issue, and from his money. Regarding build server: 1) It was already mentioned I have a libreboot motherboard for donation. 2) Since this is our development server, it should be in the physical hands of trusted developers. Whoever has access to this server will have access to the signing keys. Do we really want to have a SaaS box? Might as well just use an Amazon C3 instance. Even if Ceata meant well, it sounds very insecure to leave the keys in a foreign country. > if we want to have a serious discussion about this, please stop > spreading fud. this is a dump of the thread about the build server: > https://share.riseup.net/#bZqxbeJ5xair5HlVOk-Afw > > let me know if you see something that backs the claims i've been > reading. > > > i agree we need to find ways to be more diligent on doing stuff with > donations, being able to pay wages even, but this is not the way to > start it. please step on the brakes. > > i'm really angry at this. please don't approach me privately. i won't > reply to emails tomorrow either. i urge to discuss your concerns > openly. > > Everyone is pretty annoyed at the current situation. I think it should be brought for immediate consensus to put the brakes on all donations until this is resolved. No one is benefiting from the donations except perhaps yourself and Ceata, so I have no answer to give a donor that recently asked me what happens to their money. Having an updated transparency report will also help avoid further confusion and FUD. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: :| Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 12:14:52 -0300 From: fauno To: André Silva , Luke , Isaac David , coadde , ovruni@gnu.org.pe, Jorge López (i removed megver since i don't have his gpg key and couldn't find it) André Silva writes: > On 04/02/2017 04:05 AM, fauno wrote: >> >> like i said in the channel you invited me to, something didn't feel >> right and its the lack of transparency of this discussion. if you're >> not comfortable with the agreement we have with ceata we should be >> discussing this openly on our mailing list like we always did. > > There is a misunderstanding here, it wasn't like you said "a coup", it > was a meeting proposed by Megver83 to prepare a consensus in devs lists > soon to open a webstore and services by devs in Parabola to receive > their money under a legal and KISS way. ok, since everyone's angry i'll take a step back. let's recap a little: * you said on dev list we needed a build server so we can keep i686 alive. * then you send tct an email cc'ed to me with the expenses. * tct said "let me study this and i'll make the arrangements when i get an ok from fauno" * i studied the email you sent and saw there were some things that were really expensive. you wanted to buy an ups and a chassis on US and ship it to UY. the ups costed ~180 usd and the chassis ~95, but shipping them would amount to ~400 usd * so we discussed a little on what to do and decided to buy the ups locally which was ~160 usd and maybe not buying the chassis but only the power unit, since the motherboard is not atx but some other standard. * tct offered a ~400 usd machine and colocation on a datacenter he trusted. we told him the server was already bought. * then you said a friend of yours was willing to pay directly for the shipping cost which was dropped to ~200 usd since we weren't going to buy the ups or the chassis, and this somehow involved money from your pocket too, but i told you i didn't like for you to use your money on this. you said you wanted to and i was not convinced anyway. * then you told me g4jc needed 100 usd to deliver the things to your address in miamibox, but that he wanted them in btc because he would have tax troubles otherwise. * tct reminded us the btc are converted to ron and i asked if they could buy btc back, which he said they could. they have to convert everything to ron because of fiscal obligations, so they were never 3000 usd as you say. the value of btc was lower back then, around 300 usd. * g4jc said ceata could also pay for the delivery directly in usd so he would only have to print the ups stamp. * nothing else happens * then i'm invited to a tox channel where i read you basically think ceata and tct are keeping the money for themselves and your task is to recover it. i mention it looks like a coup, since it's a secret meeting to form a consensus out of reach from the whole community. i sustain this even if it offends you. * this meeting is mixed with some good ideas on how to be autonomous and earn wages for the work put on, which i applaud, though they were mixed with more flak towards ceata that is completely unfair. * i confront you about this and you mention you want to make parabola an entity on a tax haven, some money you had to spend from pocket for fisl and a veiled accusation of stealing parabola funds to myself. is that correct? what am i missing after "nothing else happens"? i checked the gnucash file and it says you were reimbursed for taxis, food and ac power adapter + 220v converter over a paypal transfer of ~200 usd. you can look it up under assets > paypal account usd or anything that's marked [FISL17]. i'm forwarding the original email with gnucash file attached from january. -- http://utopia.partidopirata.com.ar/ -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: GnuCash file update Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 12:18:57 -0300 From: fauno To: André Silva , coadde , Luke , Jorginho , Isaac David , ovruni@gnu.org.pe -- .oÓ) -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- To: fauno From: Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic Subject: GnuCash file update Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 05:36:43 +0200 -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Updated GNUcash file Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:19:38 -0300 From: fauno To: André Silva , coadde , Isaac David , Jorginho , Luke , ovruni@gnu.org.pe -- https://endefensadelsl.org/ -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- From: Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic Subject: Updated GNUcash file To: fauno Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 20:05:46 +0300 -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: :| Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 01:47:34 +0000 From: André Silva To: fauno , Luke , Isaac David , coadde , ovruni@gnu.org.pe, Jorge López , Megver83 On 04/03/2017 03:14 PM, fauno wrote: > > (i removed megver since i don't have his gpg key and couldn't find it) It is the megver's key info from my machine: pub rsa2048 2017-03-16 [SC] 6DB9C4B4F0D8C0DC432CF6E4227CA7C556B2BA78 uid [ full ] David P. sub rsa2048 2017-03-16 [E] [expires: 2019-03-16] > André Silva writes: > >> On 04/02/2017 04:05 AM, fauno wrote: > * tct reminded us the btc are converted to ron and i asked if they could > buy btc back, which he said they could. they have to convert > everything to ron because of fiscal obligations, so they were never > 3000 usd as you say. the value of btc was lower back then, around 300 > usd. It was the main issue since we wasted our gains to the trash converting BTC to RON (eg. now we could have around U$D 2000 instead of U$D 300) and it let me very angry and at least some guys such as Luke .R. However, today (in the early hours) i told myself "hey, i think Tiberiu told us something about it some years ago". Some hours ago (with cooler heads), i've checked our emails in the mailing lists and i found an email [0] about Tiberiu letting us know to move our assets from our Bitcoin wallet to RON for legal reasons. IFAIK, i remember be agreed to Tiberiu if it's needed to be declared, but not **all** at least, i think. Sincerely, i don't remember if you responded it too, or me, or if we reached in consensus either, therefore could you help us looking for those references in our mailing lists or any place? :S There are points here for better clarification and i would send to Tiberiu with CC to the mailing lists since i've received personal messages from anon donors for it and in another hand we would begin receive money as paid hackers since we would open options to offer services, technical support, webstore, pentesting, etc. It is my proposal to discuss openly, i would know if there aren't points that could generate FUD or misunderstanding generating more troubles for our community what are worried about our donations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Some doubts about Parabola's donations Hi Tiberiu, we've received the GNUcash file from our delegate (fauno) about our current expenses, assets and profits. I would make some questions to you, since i have some doubts yet, and i would that you could help us for a better clarification since there are users worried about our donations and gains and we have a policy about transparency for our community, that are the following one: * Why all our BTC were converted to RON? I found an email about you let us know about it [0]. I remember i agreed you about it for legal reasons (in that time i wasn't investor, therefore i didn't understand about economy), but i don't remember when was done it, if it was **all** or when we will use it for some expense or annual declaration, etc. Could you let us know if we opened a consensus about it and if there are references from Romanian laws that means it is mandatory. Please could you help us since it was a long time ago? * What is the issue if we would keep it inside our bitcoin wallet (in a "limbo") until we will declare it (eg. annual declaration or when someone will use it for expenses) to avoid waste our gains? * If all money converted from bitcoins (BTC) to RON was for legal reasons, then why weren't converted our faircoins (FAIR) too? * If it's needed (convert our crypt-coins to any currency such as RON), then we would receive references from Romanian laws for better clarification and avoid misunderstands inside our community, since there are anon donors ask me for it everytime in private. Could you give us references about those points from Romanian laws? * Why did we converted our assets in RON instead of EUR? Is it a better currency than EUR (we have account in EUR too)? Is it for some legal reason too? Could you give us references about it? * We would receive money as paid hackers (not only for non-profit things) since we have plans to offer services such as technical support, pentesting, webstore, videogames, etc? Is it possible doing it with Ceata since you are a non-profit entity? * If it isn't possible, then we should open an legal entity (eg. offshore) for Parabola and declare our gains in our residential countries or another similar legal ways (eg. micro-business), then my question is: Could be it a trouble for you since we will receive profit assets and you non-profit ones? Could help us giving us references from Romanian laws for understand it better? * Since we have our GNUcash file already sent by fauno, could you send to fauno all paperworks, bills, invoices, currency exchange copies declared by Ceata about our expenses? It's very important since Parabola has a policy about transparency for our donations. Sincerely, André. [0]:https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2015-November/003456.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you think guys? If you agree with it, i will send it right now to the mailing lists. If there are english grammar issues and if you have better suggestions to improve it, please let me know since i'm not good in english. > i checked the gnucash file and it says you were reimbursed for taxis, > food and ac power adapter + 220v converter over a paypal transfer of > ~200 usd. you can look it up under assets > paypal account usd or > anything that's marked [FISL17]. > > i'm forwarding the original email with gnucash file attached from > january. Thanks fauno for the gnucash file, now ifaik our donation page is deprecated and it was one of main reasons about all this misunderstand. Since i know you don't have time to do it, i suggest you push each gnucash file and paperworks, bills, invoices, currency exchanges copies given by Tiberiu to the repo, then we could help you upgrade our donations page putting those references, what do you think? [0]:https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2015-November/003456.html -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: :| Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:22:37 +0000 From: André Silva To: fauno , Luke , Isaac David , coadde , ovruni@gnu.org.pe, Jorge López , Megver83 On 04/04/2017 01:47 AM, André Silva wrote: > It is my proposal to discuss openly, i would know if there aren't points > that could generate FUD or misunderstanding generating more troubles for > our community what are worried about our donations. It's a second revision with grammar fixes, i will sent it to the mailing lists tomorrow. If someone would add some suggestion, improvement or/and fix something please let me know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Some doubts about Parabola's donations Hello Tiberiu, We've received the GNUcash file from our delegate (fauno) with our current expenses, assets and profits. I have a few questions for you, since I have some confusion and I think you could could help us clarify. There are several users worried about our donations and gains. We also have a policy about transparency for our community which donors feel were neglected. Here are the questions: * Why were all of our BTC converted to RON? I found an email about it letting us know it was being done [0]. I remember, we agreed about it with you for legal reasons (at that time I wasn't an investor, and didn't understand about economics). However, I don't remember when it was done, if it was **all** or just some of the BTC, for expense, annual declaration, etc. Could you let us know if there was a consensus about this and if there are references from Romanian laws stating that it is mandatory? I realize this was a long time ago, but it is an important question for our community. * What is the issue if we were to keep donations inside our bitcoin wallet (a.k.a. "limbo") until we would declare it (eg. annual declaration or when someone will use it for expenses) to avoid wasting our gains? * If all money converted from bitcoins (BTC) to RON was for legal reasons, then why weren't our faircoins (FAIR) converted too? * If converting our crypt-coins to any currency such as RON, is needed we would like to receive references from Romanian laws for better clarification and to avoid misunderstanding inside our community. Several anon donors asked me for references in private. Could you give us references about those points from Romanian laws? * Why did we convert our assets to RON instead of EUR? Is it a better currency than EUR (we have an account in EUR too)? Is it for some legal reason? Could you give us references about this? * We would like to receive money as paid hackers (not only for non-profit things) since we have plans to offer services such as technical support, pentesting, webstore, videogames, etc. Is it possible to still do this with Ceata since you are a non-profit entity? * If it isn't possible, then we should open a legal entity (eg. offshore) for Parabola and declare our gains in our residential countries or another similar legal ways (eg. micro-business), then my question is: Could be it a trouble for you since we will receive profit assets and your non-profit ones? Could help us giving us references from Romanian laws to help understand it better? * Since we have our GNUcash file already sent by fauno, could you send to fauno all paperworks, bills, invoices, currency exchange copies declared by Ceata about our expenses? It's very important, since Parabola has a policy about transparency for our donations. These should be posted on our wiki so that donors are no longer worried. Sincerely, André. [0]:https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2015-November/003456.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------